The New Road

You sound like an angry, angry, bitter man, Jack Herrington. It doesn't sound (read) like immersing yourself in the political process is good for your health. Everytime you look at the "other side", unobjectively I'm sure, you only see the worst parts. You're like your own personal attack machine. There is good on both sides of the aisle. And there is human error, and yes, corruption on both sides as well. I'm sticking with the side who's core values I agree with - because I'm certainly not getting any closer to the ugliness than I have to.

I'm certainly angry. But I don't think I'm alone in that. I would say at least half of the informal conversations I have around the office end up being about politics, and it's often not on my own prompting. The people I live and work with are generally pretty pissed off with the President. And this isn't just an anti-Republican thing. The anger is specific to this President and this administration.

I'm also angry at Newt, who decided to use his leadership mandate to go on a partisan witchhunt against a good President. In fact, I would say that Bill Clinton was the best president of the last quarter century. We had unparalled economic prosperity and peace. Now, thanks in large part to Newt, Bush, Rove, and Cheney, we have a bitter partisan polity.

Good Republican things? Collin Powell. John McCain. Condeleeza Rice (to some degree). And that is about it.

I'm a fiscal conservative, so I would like to say that I am with the Republicans there. But the fiscal conservatism thing is just rhetoric. Bush has created an all time high debt (as Reagan did), and we (you, I, and our kids) are now faced with paying that off for many years to come.

Hell, I'd have respect for them if they really cared about their social agenda. But the fact is that they don't. Have you gotten prayer in schools? No. Have you gotten creationism in the schools? No. Have you gotten the ten commandments in the courthouse? No. Have you gotten anti-abortion? A half-hearted attempt yes, but it's been overturned by three courts now. Have you gotten anti-gay marriage? No, and frankly, everyone knows the amendment won't pass. So the social agenda is cute, but it's just pandering to get people in churches to vote for them. When they get in office they have a lot more important things to do, like pay off their cronies, and redistrict states to make it easier to win the next time.

So, yes, I am angry, very very angry that our kids go off to fight in a ridiculous senseless needless war. Every day I hear about the war dead I get angry because this is all so pointless. It's not like Vietnam. It's worse than Vietnam. And it happened on our watch. We elected (not really) this President and he is killing us (literally) and the legacy and reputation of this country worldwide.

I'm glad you cleared up the whole fiscal conservative thing--as I've always believed that's definitely a republican viewpoint.

I believe that Mr. Reagan created the HUGE deficit that we had then in order to end the cold war. The Soviet Union, as a communist block, ended shortly thereafter.

And the whole matter of Mr. Clinton's impeachment issues go to a entirely sordid amount of lying that he and his people did during his administration. He even had to go on tv and tell the world he lied about Ms. Lewinski. Now that never should have been made public, but he's a public man and should have expected someone to find out. We are a nation of nosey, busy-bodies.

I'm with Jacqueline in that all politians are corrupt on some level--they've all had to sell out somewhere to get where they're at. There are lies and deceit everywhere--we simply choose to see what we choose to see.

Finally, if you're still having such a problem with the right-wing, republican controlled, uber-conservative media, why do you listen?

You know, I was embarassed by Bill Clinton. I thought he was a terrible role model for our youth. He was (is) intelligent, educated, and driven - all admirable, but he was a liar and a coward. The greatest president of the last quarter century? You're comparing him to 6 months of Carter, 12 years of Reagan/Bush and GW Bush. I would place him third on that list, behind Reagan and GW.

Yes, during his adminstration we had prosperity, but we by no means had peace. We were attacked in Africa, in Somalia, on the USS Cole. We were bombing Iraq . . . Just because Clinton was busy dallying in the oval office with his intern instead of fighting back and the war hadn't reached our soil yet doesn't mean we were living in peace. He left an economy on the downslide and enemies unchecked and emboldened. You should have seen and heard the cheers that went up on election night 2000 when Tennessee was certified red. Mark and I were having dinner in a nice restaurant/bar on Music Row and the place erupted with applause!

The people I live and work with are very proud of our president and the important work he is doing. We think John Kerry will say anything to anyone to get elected - the quintessential politician - and most of us rate politicians with used car salesmen.

As a conservative, I'm not looking for creationism to be taught in school. But I also don't want my child to have to listen to a speech by the Dali Lama, or to have to live as a muslim for a week in the name of diversity to get a grade when her faith is so blatenly disregarded - banned even. By the way, my children go to a private, Christian school, so they will be praying in school. Our president has very strongly supported initiatives for faith-based groups to receive federal money. He did sign the partial birth abortion ban. He has aired his opposition to gay marriage (which I don't oppose) and supports social conservatism. He is not ashamed of being a Methodist and there is no controversy when he goes to church, unlike Kerry, who only calls himself a Catholic. There are so many religions out there - why not choose one that believes as you do instead of disrespecting the one you attend?

Finally, I don't think Iraq is a senseless war. It has not gone smoothly and it is awful to watch, and I have friends who have been deployed and I'm worried for them. But I believe they are fighting for our future and I pray we win.

Thanks for the point by point rebuttals in both of the previous comments.

As to the questions, "Why do I listen to right wing radio?" Because I feel I need to understand the other viewpoint. We have no shortage of right wingers or right wing radio in the Bay Area (surprised?) So there is lots to listen to. What you probably don't get is true left radio. Most people think that's NPR, but NPR is moderate in comparison with our local KBFA.

Yes, the right wing radio I listen to I am often shocked and distressed by. Limbaugh calling the atrocities in the Iraqi prisons "playful" and "nothing more than he has seen at a Madonna concert" then calling for the use of nuclear weapons on Iraqi cities. I could go on and on, but suffice to say that Limbaugh, Hannity, O'Reilly, Coulter and the rest are clearly uneducated and merely drone Rove's position. What they know is all lies and fabrications and what they spout is just distortions of reality.

I mentioned a while back about the mass slaughter in Africa of the Hutus that happened with the encouragement of extremist radio. I don't think it's too far off to think that type of thing could happen here. Hannity, Limbaugh and the rest use terms like sub-human all the time. They have often referred to liberals as some sort of sub-species. So if the machetes come out I would like to know a little in advance.

On to Clinton. The whole Whitewater thing was a red herring, the continuing witch hunt, lasting six years, cost us millions and ended up finding nothing more than a little indiscretion which, however distasteful, is not uncommon. It's also PRIVATE. Why should I know or care about Lewinsky? Why should I know about cigars and interns? You can thank Newt for that, and your beloved Republic Party. Who is so far up the moral high ground that they believe in impeaching Presidents with slanderous personal attacks.

As for Clinton lying. About what? Besides Lewisnky (which as I explained we shouldn't have known about anyway) I can't recall anything off hand, but I can recall a lot of times GW has lied. It's almost no sport to mention them anymore. He and his administration lie, distort and conceal as a matter of course.

Now about the religion thing. Anyone who knows me knows that I am an atheist. I have been and always will be an atheist. That being said I believe I have a very strong moral center. I do believe in right and wrong. Does that mean I have moral clarity? No, because I'm not a Christian, for which this term is the new "sign of the fish". But I fail to understand how people who believe that they are of 'moral clarity' can look at the atrocities in Iraqi prisons and say, "Oh, that's not too bad." It's TORTURE, plain and simple. If someone took my child and did that to them I would want them punished SEVERELY. Yet people who detest the "moral relativism" (the new code word for liberal) somehow find that torturing Muslims is ok. Let me check the ole Bible here. Nope, no "Thou shalt torture unbelievers". From my limited understanding of Christ I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have been figuring out which lead to attach first (red or black.)

Faith based initiatives. Ah yes, a shameful betrayal of the very principle that brought our forefathers to these shores. Just because W was busted for a DUI and found Jesus through AA doesn't mean the rest of us should. Giving churches money for social programs that they can easily use to the offset the costs of their religious mission is an obvious violation of the separation of church and State on it's face.

As for 'fighting for our future'. On this we agree, as long as the 'our' is Halliburton executives, Cheney and the Bush family. As for the rest of us, we have nothing to gain from this war, and everything to lose.

Unfortunately your vote, and all of your cheering, was for the victory of a hateful corporate meat machine. Who's goal is to exploit your strong beliefs and faith, and your good intentions, by tricking you into voting for them on social causes (and 'moral clarity'). When their real goal is only to feed the military industrial complex, to enrich the rich. While, as just a nice side effect, to deny the poor and the middle class a basic quality of life. Yeah! Go machine! Go wealthy! Go white!

You are just as blinded by your ideology as any extreme right-winger is by his.

Long before Enron was even investigated, Bill Clinton and his wife were involved in the Whitewater land development deal. It was illegal. Hillary Clinton lied about working on the case - hid the billing records so she wouldn't be sent to prison - Bill Clinton lied about his involvement. He set a horrible example. The man seriously, under oath, told us that it depends on what the definition of "is" is. Pathological. Liars Lie. You should have learned that from Al Franken.

As for religion and 'moral clarity', I would definitely say that not everyone who listens to Rush Limbaugh agrees with him on every single point he makes - or the methods he uses to make them. I read the statements from the prisoners at Abu Grabhe and it was bad. It was awful, in fact. It wasn't playful. To compare it to the goings on at a Madonna concert is absurd. To broadcast the photos worldwide on CBS when it was already well into the investigative phase was irresponsible and deadly to the US and our mission in the Middle East. CBS didn't "break" the story - they just exploited it and damaged us all in the process. I don't know if Rush agrees with me or not, because I only get him in my car, during lunch hour - not in my office. For the record, we don't get Air America either, which I'd really like to hear. Al Franken is funny, even though he's wrong.

As for the Bible being against torture - you're just wrong on that. Read it. I have. Cover to cover. I started to again last year, but had to stop in July because it was so violent. I was 9 months pregnant and god was commanding his people, who were at war, to dash the enemies' infants against the rocks. I had to stop. It is the most bloody, gruesome book I have ever read. Granted, that was the old testament, but Jesus was not a dove carrying an olive branch either. He was a rebel - physically overturning merchants tables set up in the temple. He didn't only preach "Love thy neighbor", he fought for the way. But the bible is a guidebook. A reference book. Obviously open to interpretation.

Your party has skewed the intention of separation of church and state. Read the quotes of the founding fathers. They never intended the USA to be a godless society. You're lucky you live here and are able to practice athieism without being forced to accept someone else's god. That is the separation. The government won't impose an official religion on the people.

And you know, chuches exist to preach their beliefs, provide a community of believers and to extend their outreach into society. They help people in need. They band together to support the community. I would much rather support my church's program of "Room in the Inn", where homeless men are fed and given a safe, warm place to sleep and have their clothes washed, than to pay more taxes so the government can squander my money on a new program. The same with Habitat for Humanity. I would much rather give money or time to help build a home for someone who has worked for it and is working side by side with me and other people in their community than give more tax money to the government so they can hire 20 more people to cut that same person a welfare check and stow them away in public housing. It goes back to accountability. Getting help from within the caring community instead of from a nameless, faceless government is more benefiecial to the recipient and the community.

Unfortunately your vote will be for the victory of a hateful condescending power machine. Who's goal is to exploit your strong beliefs in equality for everyone, and your good intentions, by tricking you into voting for them on social causes. When their real goal is only to create dependancy on their policies by the poor and uneducated to ensure their own political future. While, as just a nice side effect, to deny the poor and the middle class basic access to the money they do earn, thus decreasing their quality of life and creating a nanny state. Yeah! Go machine! Go big government! Go hypocrites!

I don't need someone else to spend my money for me. I give within my community for social causes. I depend on the federal government to protect me and rescue me if I'm in a disaster. And provide good roads.

Really, isn't it all better in moderation?

What I know of Whitewater is that it was investigated for years and that it was not considered very actionable. Not many of the articles of impeachement had to do with Whitewater.

On to Franken. You can listen to Al, he is on right now, in fact, on www.airamericaradio.com. I don't think you can fairly say that whatever he says is 'wrong' without listening to him. I've hear Rush's calls for genocide. I've heard how he belittles peoples suffering. I know from first hand experience that what he says is wrong and hateful.

On to the bible. Since the bible is 'open to interpretation' how can you have a clear sense of what 'moral clarity' is? If anyone can do anything and back it up with the book, where do right and wrong fit in? Was it torture or not? Was it right or wrong? Simple questions. Simple answers. I don't need a book to tell me that attaching leads to someones genitalia is wrong. I don't need a preacher telling me that raping prisoners is wrong (or maybe not.)

As for church and state, the government is not our society. The government serves the role of protecting us and providing a legal basis of a standard of personal and business conduct at a very basic level. If we choose to follow a faith, what that faith is, it's all a personal thing outside of the government.

By the state saying that some religions are real and other are not, then funding those that are real and not the others, they are creating a state religion. Unitarianism is not a religion according to the Texas authorities. Therefore to get funding you need to follow another faith. States should not be deciding this. Just the same way that it should have been clear that the Nazi should not have been defining what it meant to be a Jew.

As for spending my money. Again, fiscal conservatism is the true domain of the Democrats. Tax and spend is a lie. The government and the military was far leaner and meaner under Clinton than it is today or during Reagan.

It was definitely leaner . . .

The deputy secretary of defense under Reagan recently said that it was the Clinton military that won in Iraq. The Clinton administration insistence on a wired battlefield and high tech tools like the predator made for far better command and control. Do you really think Cheney was able to completely retool the DoD in seven months?

Here is a question for your Jacqueline. In one of your earlier comments to a different thread you said that we (meaning I believe America) was morally superior to a large faction (I think that was the word you used) of the middle east. My question is, do you believe that you are morally superior to me?