It seems that I invariably encounter good conversations on planes now. On the flight from Walla Walla to Portland I sat next to a Honda representative and talked to him about my troubles with my Civic Hybrid. He was very friendly and helpful. But ultimately his answer was unsatisfying.
The cooler conversation was on the way down to Oakland where I sat next to a Presbyterian pastor. She was very interesting and incredibly well educated. Surprisingly she had nothing good to say about Bush. She thought he was not genuine in his faith and though that he had co-opted Christianity with his brand of blind faith.
We talked at length about a story on NPR where the commentator described Bush's faith as unquestioning and undeveloped. She considered her faith as much more of a thinking and reasoning understanding of the core ideals of Christianity. Though it was clear that the outreach component played a central role in her faith.
Bush's "faith based initiatives" was another topic we covered. She said her church hadn't looked into that at all, but that she was convinced that if all of the faithful tithed $10 to the church that they could build services that would cover the social programs now provided by the government and do a better job. I said that I didn't like the strings that would be attached and talked with her about my reservations about Habitat For Humanity. I would love to volunteer but I refuse the prayer and religious aspects of it. Her response made it clear that this aspect of the program wasn't going anywhere so I had best look to channel my energies to something that was secular.
I was really impressed with this pastor. She was a Berkeley graduate who had done probation work in her first career. She was thoughtful and direct. She also pointed me to C. S. Lewis' "Mere Christianity" as a book that described what it means to have a questioning faith, and explains the role that faith can play in someone's life without preaching.
What struck me most is how clear she was in separating her faith from that of George W. Bush. She couldn't have been any clearer. She doesn't believe at all in W's unthinking small minded view of faith and hates how he has wrapped up religion and politics. I'm sure it affects her personally when it sees people, like me, who are outside of the religion, linking her church with Bush's insane extremist policies.
Posted by jherr at November 28, 2004 11:12 PMAt the risk of sounding condescending, I think you needed this conversation. Not all Christians are alike. There are varies shades of grey. I've know a few like your pastor that give me hope that the whole religion isn't tanked. Its just the few vocal nut-jobs that spoil the bunch. Still I have no desire to go back to it. I feel stronger in myself. That however is beside the point though, and probably something for me to blog about on my own someday.
Posted by: Lori Herrington at November 29, 2004 07:50 AMI'll admit that I have been hard on Christians. Primarily because Bush has co-opted the religion and turned it into a political tool. Apparently willingly from what I can see. How people can miss the obvious comparison to what Al Qaeda has done to Islam is beyond me. But that's another story.
Unfortunately I don't think it's just a few 'vocal nut-jobs'. There are a lot of flag waving god-fearing Christians who really believe that we are 'morally superior' and that people who believe different have 'no right to exist'. You and I both know that this type of rhetoric is straight out of Mein Kampf. And that is scary to me.
As I have said on many occasions, I don't have a problem with anyone believing what they want to believe. But I react badly when people try to come after me to try and convert me. And that's what Christians have tried on a personal level to do for my entire life, and are now trying to do to the whole country.
Anyway, long story short, I know there are moderate Christians. We have friends and family who fall into that category. But we also have acquaintances who have fallen far off the edge. And at the moment, for me, anyone who claims to be Christian to me has to be suspect of being part of , or supportive of, this Bush neocon death cult nonsense.
Posted by: jherr at November 29, 2004 08:34 AMDidn't your candidate John Kerry on several occasions discuss his religion? Even though he's a catholic, that still makes him a christian. So, does that make him part of the Bush neo-con death cult?
I'm greatly confused by your discussion with the pastor. It seems that you were impressed with her education. Do you know that many, church leaders these days are graduates of seminary school (effectively graduate school)? Did you respect her because of her education? It seems like you respected her because she agreed with you on Bush and his frivolous use of religion as a political tool.
Are you going to buy the book she recommended? It sounds like she had no interested in converting you (as seems to have happened to you in the past), but rather wanted to provide you with tools to educate yourself as she has educated herself. Just to educate. Where are you going to take your discussion?
Posted by: eigga49 at November 29, 2004 02:07 PMI have to assume at this point that anyone that professes to being a Christian could be a member of the death cult. Someone who can't recognize the separation between church and state, and thinks that anyone who thinks differently is subhuman.
I poked around in our conversation and it was clear that she wasn't a member of the cult.
And she had faith in her faith. And all that is fine. I have no problem with whatever people want to believe. I have no problems with people believing the death cult rhetoric. But when I know that someone does then, in terms of public policy, we are in disagreement and I will fight them if I can. Death cult public policies are not in line with the principles that founded our nation. Primarily freedom of and from religion, which is, as you recall, our first amendment.
She was interested in converting me. It's not something I would usually stand around for. I don't think Christians have some unique right to stick their nose in my business, but the conversation was interesting, so I stuck in there for it.
Posted by: jherr at November 29, 2004 02:41 PMwhat kinds of problems are you having with your hybrid?
Posted by: eigga49 at November 30, 2004 06:41 AMTwice now the battery system that drives the integrated motor assist has failed and needed to be completely replaced. That's a $5,000 repair that I would rather not have to do off-warranty. So I asked the guy what my options were and his suggestion was to do a trade-in. Which, of course, is more money in his pocket. And leaves me with more money out of my pocket for what is otherwise a great car.
Posted by: jherr at November 30, 2004 08:37 AMThanks for signing in, . Now you can comment. (sign out)
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