The New Road

Just off the top of my head . . . factually (biblically) no one knows when Jesus will return. Nobody knows the date - the time - the month, year, decade etc . . . it will happen when it happens and the only action we can take is to be ready (spiritually-right with God)for when it does happen. We aren't called to try to make it happen.

Secondly, suicide is considered a mortal sin. Christians awaiting the Rapture wouldn't use it as a preparation.

There's a couple differences between Christians and the Hale-Bopp cult.

Perhaps you don't believe in the signs, but lots of your kin-folk do:

http://www.pretribulation.com/signs.htm

Just surf around for Red Hiefer and follow how folks in the midwest and in Israel have been breeding one specifically to speed the way for the coming of Jesus.

Your rebuttal is unconvincing. Both rapture right Christians and the Hale Bopp share the same detest for this mortal coil and wish fervently to shed it through some kind of ascension.

I don't know if it's as much as a detesting of this mortal coil as it is a peace with the next level . . .

Although, many people do, legitimately, have much reason to detest their lot . . . I can understand looking forward to a utopian afterlife . . . especially if they're in a third world country with live feeds of U.S. lifestyles & attitudes flaunted in front of them.

Fanatics are fanatics. I'm sure - convinced actually - that there are people in both Christianity and Islam trying to expedite the return of their Messiah.

I don't agree with your notion, though, that W. is one of those fanatics.

For a solid report on Bush and his religious beliefs watch this Frontline:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/jesus/

Despite the tone of that report, I was neither frightened of W nor convinced that he is a "rapture right" fanatic.

I didn't find him any scarier than me or my friends.

Boo!

Do you believe in the rapture?

How can he be a Christian if he doesn't believe in the rapture?

I'm not sure if there will be a rapture. But if there is one, I hope it happens before the tribulation and chaos - I'd like to miss all of that please.

I'm not a theology scholar, but I'm pretty sure that "The Rapture" is not something all Christians must accept in order to be Christians. Maybe certain denominations preach it as dogma, but the Catholic church doesn't. I've never heard it preached at my church - or the one before it (disciples of Christ)- or the one before it for that matter (Church of Christ-derivitive).

Do you follow the teachings of your church exclusively?

For example, do you know that the Disciples of Christ is a member of the "Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice", a pro-choice group?

Interestingly, Bush's church; United Methodist, is also in the coalition for pro-choice. Even though he is supposedly staunchly anti-abortion (although it's said that when he talks privately he doesn't care about the issue).

Lots of people believe in the rapture. Even when their church doesn't or holds no position on it. Just look at the sales figures for the Left Behind series.

What church are you now in?

"Do you follow the teachings of your church exclusively?"

Absolutely not. You can read my post from April 18th (Baptists And Other Weird Southern Things) to get a pretty detailed account of my history and position. The Southern Baptist Convention endorses many positions that I do not. However, we have grown to love the PEOPLE in our church. The church family.

When we were members of the Disciples of Christ denomination, they had a link to GLAAD on their website. They're a very liberal, accepting, open Christian church. This is from their website:

"Disciples advocate freedom and respect diversity. Creeds may be used from time to time, but none is seen as the test of a true believer. We hold true "Where the Bible speaks, we speak, and where the Bible is silent, we are silent", which means each person is challenged to study the scriptures and to seek God's will for their life. The unity of all Christians continues to be held before us as our "polar star." The Christian Church has always served as a "bridge church" or a common ground for people with diverse denominational backgrounds."

We had absolutley no problem with the creed. Embraced it, actually.

My mom was raised Methodist, so I have some history there, too.

I think, and this is just my observation, that you feel threatened by right wing fundamentalist fanaticism and I'm afraid you make the assumption that the majority of Christians (especially Southern ones) are kool-aid drinking sheep without independent thought processes. I could be wrong, but that's the vibe I get from your posts.

From my experience, when you come to the South, you will find living, breathing examples of a.) Redneck attitudes b.) racism c.) religious fanaticism. They're all here. But you can find examples of them anywhere in America that you look.

I don't think the answer is to try to discredit their religious beliefs, but maybe more to befriend them and try to change their hearts & minds with human interaction.

Someone (southern, religious) actually told me a few weeks ago, "You know, I don't think of my friend Mary as gay. I just see her as my friend Mary." It was a revelation! A start! The more human faces are put on "issues", the more accepting people are of them.

So what if the Rapture happens? None of us will know for sure until it does. It may not. The Left Behind series explores the possibility. I actually have all of the books, but I lost interest in the middle of the 4th one. Needless to say, it's not the best literature available on the market. So, just because I have the series doesn't meen I'm a member of the Rapture Right. It just means that Christians have a lot of buying power. We like Christian products (the passion of the christ).

Let me start by saying that I like what you are saying here. It's good stuff. I like the tolerance. I like emphasis on diversity. It's good. Honestly. I think more of your for you having said it.

That being said, the external face of Christianity (as nebulous as that is) has been hijacked by the hard right. And that's not just me saying that. Groups have been organized to attempt to bring Christianity back to it's tolerant roots and de-emphasize the 'militant Jesus' view.

Sean Hannity talks all the time about how moderate Muslims should renounce Islamic terrorism. Can you turn that around on yourself, and renounce people like Pat Robertson for the threats he has made? What about Ann Coulter? Ann purports to be a Christian, but doesn't practice any of the tolerance you state, in fact, far from. And yet you have refused on several occassions to renounce Ann's statements.

As to my personal experience. I like moderate or left Christians. The church I remember growing up in Pennsylvania was fun, supportive, entertaining, diverse and open-minded.

When I moved to Florida I was exposed to something vastly different. A religion that hated my principles and beliefs. That didn't want to listen to me. That wanted only to convert me. Actively. In my face. Every day. I was bad, I was wrong, I was not competent to raise a family. I didn't have value or values. I was a problem. That there is absolute right, and if I did not accept it, I was absolute wrong.

Do I fear a person who holds those beliefs? No. I think they are pathetic. Do I fear a country ruled by people who hold those beliefs? Absolutely. As evidenced by what we now see in the Middle East. People on every side are dying because everyone has stopped talking. Fundamentalism, be it Christian, Islamic, Jewish, Atheistic, or whatever, is the real enemy.

So you see, I like some churches. I like the community aspect. I follow the important ten commandments. I dig what Jesus was talking about. I love the golden rule. There are just two things holding me back.

The first is prostelitization (sp?). I don't think I have the right to comment on anyone else's life. If you will note I have never told you that you should renounce your faith, and I never will. What you do with your spiritual life is up to you. While you on several occassions have told me that my life is incomplete without Christ. Prostelitizing offends me and a lot of other people. It shows a blatant disregard and disrespect for me and my beliefs.

Second, Christianity has been hijacked by the far right. Liberal and moderate voices don't sell. So now for many people Christianity means intolerance, bigotry, fear mongering and worse. If Jesus were here today I think he would weep at what is being said in his name.

As I say, were it not for these two things I would gladly associate myself with a very liberal Christian church. I would have found great comfort in the community after my Mom's death. But, I have great friends, a number of whom are devout Christians, and that gives me my own little supoprt system.

"While you on several occassions have told me that my life is incomplete without Christ."

Have I really? That doesn't sound like something I would do. But if I did, I'm sorry. MY life would be incomplete without Christ, but yours is yours to fill to completion.

I agree that fundamental fanaticism is the enemy.

So you feel you do not prostelitize?

"I'm glad to see you're reading the bible. That's how I started, too." -Jacqueline 3/29/2005

I could find more but I'm busy.

I don't think I preach mine any more than you preach yours.

You can't be serious. I've never made any attempt to convert you to atheism, if there even is such a thing. Nor do I believe that I have ever been directly critical of your being a Christian, though I am exteremely harsh on Christianity, and it's followers as a group. And neither of us is free from guilt when it comes to criticizing groups of people.

What I have noticed is since Bush's decline in the polls, and the failure in Iraq has become obvious, and disasters like Katrina, you have become much softer spoken. No longer do we hear about a Christian majority. Or that this country is a Christian country. Or that your side possesses a moral richeousness and clarity.

In other words, you seem to have lost faith in Bush and your party.

I wonder if we would get along better if we actually spoke to each other face to face.

Although, when we have been face to face, historically, we haven't really spoken much. . .

The last time we saw each other was Barbara's wedding, and having a cat fight there wouldn't have been a good idea.

I doubt I could be anything beyond civil until I get an apology for your saying that I'm a traitor.

Since the United States Constitution, Article Three defines treason as only levying war against the United States or "in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort," I hereby offer an official apology to you, Jack Herrington, for agreeing with you when you declared yourself a traitor during our heated debates during the 2004 election cycle.

I still believe that you were giving the enemy aid and comfort, however, you were not adhering to them. In fact, you were very firmly stating yourself as an American and an lover of America. I know you want what is best for our country, and even though our ideas of what that is and how to get there may be vastly different, I respect your right to express your views and opinions and love with all of my soul the fact that we live in a country where free and open debate is allowed and celebrated.

Thanks. I appreciate it and I'll try not to bring it up again.